Beyond the Police "Boys Club" with Rhona Malone

𝐋𝐞𝐚𝐝𝐞𝐫 𝐨𝐟 𝐒𝐜𝐨𝐭𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐝, 𝐍𝐢𝐜𝐨𝐥𝐚 𝐒𝐭𝐮𝐫𝐠𝐞𝐨𝐧: "...𝐈 ...𝐩𝐚𝐲 𝐭𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐮𝐭𝐞 𝐭𝐨 𝐑𝐡𝐨𝐧𝐚 𝐌𝐚𝐥𝐨𝐧𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 ... 𝐈 𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐝 𝐡𝐞𝐫 𝐛𝐫𝐚𝐯𝐞𝐫𝐲 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐚𝐤𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐞. 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐝𝐢𝐧𝐠𝐬 𝐩𝐚𝐢𝐧𝐭 𝐚 𝐩𝐢𝐜𝐭𝐮𝐫𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐬𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐮𝐛𝐥𝐞 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐨𝐟 𝐮𝐬 ...we cannot assume that ... a case like this is an isolated incident"

Facing oppressive systemic sexism is not unique; it's what Rhona did in the face of it that makes her story so worth our time!

Rhona Malone was a highly trained professional in a career that she absolutely loved and was dedicated to. She was working within a system that had assured her and all the other members of their force that they were dedicated to diversity, gender equality and systemic change. Rhona found that everything she had worked for was at stake when it was all exposed to be just empty words. Sexism and gender-discrimination was alive and well in the system and thwarting both her career and her individual rights and capacities, not just a police officer and a firearm specialist.

Believing in the promises of guaranteed equalities, Rona sought to help change some of the issues that faced her and other women. What she could not have known was that she would face a three year legal battle that not only robbed her of the career she loved, but of her financial and emotional well being.

Rona never bent to the pressure to sign a nondisclosure agreement that would muzzle her and let the repressive "boys club" system continue unimpeded. She won her fight, spurred discussion and recognition of the issue all the way to the highest office in the land - Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon called the tribunal results a "watershed moment", and that women should not expected to fix the problem of men behaving in a "deeply unacceptable and misogynistic way".

In the meantime, Rhona has created a new life for herself, both with her own business in a totally different area - estate agency, but also as a burgeoning public speaker, addressing these issues of systemic sexism, discrimination and inequality.   -  She's ALL That!

This amazing conversation is one woman’s efforts to use podcast guest appearances to get her very important message out to the world.  

Whether it’s to grow your speaking career, to get more widely known, or to better position yourself as the authority you really are - strategic podcast guesting is a savvy move.  
We can help you figure out your best strategy and get you rapidly and effectively launched leveraging this powerful medium.

You can find Rhona Malone at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rhona-malone/
https://www.facebook.com/SexismStopsHere
https://www.facebook.com/rhonamalonekellerwilliams/
https://twitter.com/SexismStops_
https://goo.gl/maps/RdtqdqNoTfceSSxE6

Contact us at ssmith@ofcoursepro.com

Transcript

0:01

This is the She's All That video podcast - conversations with women doing awesome shit. I'm your host September Smith. And in this season, it's all about the transformation that women are making in the aftermath of the 'midlife bomb', as I call it. Those unforeseen events - illness, loss, a career termination, a battle, an awakening, a transformation - events that are lobed into our lives like a grenade, detonating the life that we've been living for decades and making it impossible to ever go back. When this happens, we are left to dust ourselves off, figure it out and find our own way forward. While the lens of popular culture is often on the tragedy and the trauma - and the injury and damage that it inflicts - I want to celebrate women who are only made stronger by what they experienced. We need to hear those stories to know that building that new life, that new incarnation, from the pieces of what was is not just possible, it may be the best thing you'll ever do. Welcome to the she's all that video podcast. I'm your host September Smith, and today I'm talking to Rhona Malone. until April of 2020. Rhona Malone was a member of the police service of Scotland, and she had risen to the position of Firearms Officer. Last year, she left her position and her heard one career after an almost three year legal battle with the force in which she was victorious. Rhona's fight was in response to repeated discrimination and a culture of institutionalized sexism at the Police Scotland firearms unit, where women are set up to fail, particularly if they question how things work. Rhona, welcome. And thank you so much for being here today to talk about this. Thank you, September. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you. I am so thrilled to talk to you. It was actually you know, LinkedIn discussion thread, about the topic of non disclosure agreements NDAs that I first discovered you it was a conversation that was precipitated by one woman's post about how an NDA had totally impacted her life or career, her mental health or financial health, etc. And how she felt so alone. And you and me. And dozens of dozens of other women piled in with a me to comment. Yeah. And your story particularly stood out for me. So give me a little bit of background about what your situation was you were working with Police Scotland? Yeah. And you were a Firearms Officer. Now that's, that's something that at the bola above a regular police officer, you'd worked really hard to become a Firearms Officer. What is that? And what was happening? What was that pivot point that caused you to go on this path of fighting? So I am I was a police officer for nearly seven, you know, nearly eight years when I joined firearms. I think I took on as another challenge. That was something you know, there weren't many women and that area of work. It was definitely sold to me, you know, as in, we need to get more women into the division. Is that something that would be of interest to you? And for me? I mean, I was very committed police officer, I loved what I did. I had an absolutely great career. And yeah, I thought this is a great challenge. I like to change people's perspectives. And I thought, yeah, I can do that. So I joined a 10 week intensive course. And there's a high failure rate of police officers going through the course, quite rightly. So you have to have a good mindset and know what you're doing. The red exactly is that Firearms Officer designation, what what do they do so well, and I know some people will be aware of and Breton, we don't have the date to carry firearms, and you have to have a license to have a firearm. Either personally, or even in a working environment like the police, the police is all in place where you would get that. That's great. I mean, as it's a huge, it's a huge, I totally respected the fact that I got the opportunity to do that because it was a huge responsibility. So as a Firearms Officer I'd say you know, you're just a normal police officer, you are still a police officer, you've just got this extra PPE. So you've the protection equipment, you've that that is the only difference and you've got extra training, you know, you're put into situations which could just be sort of life and death situations. So you wouldn't normally go to a pop roll for example, or go along to a domestic abuse situation unless it was a threat to life unless somebody was threatening somebody else's life or they are threatening to harm themselves. So it was very in Liberty jobs that we went to, you know, because we wanted to not only protect the public, but shells. So yeah, so I joined in 2016, it was a great, phenomenal opportunity. And I went to Edinburgh. So I've said the capital of Scotland, I was working from there. And it was just amazing. It was great. Absolutely opportunity to be able to fight again, I'll not lie, you know, the training was amazing. It was really good. But the responsibility that came with that, again, was crucial was was very, I took that very seriously. So I started to notice, though, that this division was very unique. So as I said, before, we're all the same, but all police officers, we've just got this extra PPE, we've just got this extra equipment. But this department or division that was working on was very unique. And it was very male dominated, and it was micromanaged. So certainly in the training, you've got to make split second decisions. So there's a potential actually at somebody. So for me, you have to have a lot you have to use your own instincts, you have to be able to risk assess immediately and yourself. And you know, not have, you never had somebody over your back telling you what you could or couldn't do. So then I moved to this division, the management is very oppressive, very micromanaged. And it was basically, I found it a huge conflict, huge conflict, because I thought, Here I am taking the responsibility of potential shooting someday. And I'm in an environment where I'm being restricted and obstructed and limited. And that didn't work well. And I didn't it wasn't a nice, nice place to be. Now, one question, was this, the micromanaging and killing oppressive oversight? Was that something that all officers in the firearms division had to deal with? Yeah, so it wasn't about initially, it wasn't a gender thing? No, this was the whole division process the board? Yep, absolutely. And not the challenge that nobody really because what their response was, if you challenge management, you're basically a job. You don't want to create a target on your back. So there's only so long that you can that I keep up with that. Because at the end of the day, it's me that's counting gun. At me, that's gonna end up potentially shooting somebody. And it's me that will take a lot of heavy responsibility, whether it goes to jail, go to the court, you know, what have you. So that's always in the back of my mind. But I just pet them longer. I was there more and more overseer more picked up on this negativity, this oppression, the steps are there to patient but it wasn't from the people I worked with. It was management, it was was from them. So I started to highlight my concerns. And it was to do more work. The directions that I was given the orders that I was given, I questioned everything. Again, that's me that would be responsible, then dizzy, face short Sunday. So I needed to make sure that I was being informed how what was happening, there was justification for everything. And the justification never came. So when I was questioning things when I was asking, it doesn't come push started to make me feel quite uneasy. But the pivot point for you. Was it having looked at the BBC reporting on your case, the pivot point was an email. Yeah. Tell me a bit about that. So basically, I had because I challenged or questioned a few of the orders that have been given in directions. I was also experienced and really horrendous treatment from my senior management. So I had dealt with three major incidents before that email, there was many others but there's like three major and that was directly related, I believe, to my agenda. One of them was an overtime claim that I didn't get quite as a meal off so dead Uber in the same circumstances. The other one was I had a claimed or tried to get like flexible working or condensed working hours, thoughts vetted with my family, and again, management media extremely difficult and went out of their way to basically obstruct me to be able to do my job at the same time as well with my family. So it by their reckoning, you can't be protecting the public. You can't be an officer holding the responsibility of a firearms officer and still have have the flexibility to be a part of your family? No, it wasn't that it was more. They didn't want to help. They wanted to meet as awkward as possible. They didn't. The rules and regulations and Police Scotland dad that, you know, officers apply for flexible working or condensed working hours. It should be applied in every instance. Unless there's a justifiable reason why No, actually precedent for this people that wasn't yet. Absolutely. But for I established, and I'll come into that later with court cases, they used and abused the processes and procedures, they misled they, they didn't follow them. So the track they made as awkward as possible, and they couldn't justify it, but they deleted it. And everything, they were deleting my overtime, or my condensed working hours application form. It just had a huge impact on my family, I wasn't seeing them, you know, the the chefs were horrendous in that division. And I was just looking to be able to look after my family at the same time as do my job. But they just weren't willing to be flexible with me at all. And they made it really difficult. And then there was a third incident before that email. And that was in December. And I was basically acute Bissau because I was highlighting these things. I was upset management. But I also got accused of throwing my belt with a loaded weapon. And that never happened. It was just saw my utility belt with a Glock and my Glock 17. They accused me of throwing that on the floor, I have like a tantrum like it was having a tantrum. What So, and I just confirmed that that never happened at any time. And when it was investigated later on that that senior officer, basically he in what was the word he used? Sorry, I just lost my mind there. It was misunderstood the situation. Or it was a misunderstanding. It was a misunderstanding when you're accused you of doing something totally responsible in your position as a Firearms Officer. Yeah, totally against any of the training or so I so there was a few situations that led up to that was happening up to a year before I got this email. So this email that you're discussing was received in January of 2018. And this was basically the pivot the final, the cherry on top that just had the straw that broke again, this year. And the email was absolutely 100% discriminate today. And it was my senior officer recently, I had worked with a female officer, and we had had a great shift, we've had some great results. And you know, there aren't any, there was just myself and this other female officer than any females and finance. So, you know, the fact that we got to work together was you know, we were like, This is brilliant. This is really good. And, and we could show them how well we did because it is there's a pressure on you as a woman, that you have to prove yourself wrongly or rightly that that that feeling was there all the time. And we worked so well in the chef's got good results. And I came into an email, basically saying I don't want to see two female officers working together, him due to the physical capabilities and to balance out testosterone. And then the email Meishan. to balance out testosterone, like testosterone is a necessary element of being a police officer. It's like I needed a meal, a meal to hold my hand to do the job. It was awful. It was just at first I thought it was just an absolute joke Now was this just an email that went out just to you or was this department-wide? So the passionate center, my line manager who it was sent to myself and this other female officer. So we we saw that as a direct instruction. Yeah, and it was awful. It was just absolutely disgusting. And totally discriminate today. And he starts off the email saying I'm going to jump in with two feet and be accused of or I can't remember that. I think I have the quote there. You've got the sexual discrimination. I'm going to be accused of discrimination discrimination. So you're absolutely right. Because you have been and it's okay because it's like, like, through the political correctness here. Yeah. Yeah, let's just use my rank and authority and mess us and, and that that's wrong. That is wrong on so many levels, and that really affect me really badly. Because I think that's when I had the lightbulb moment and I thought this whole division is just separate from so Originally, you know that the there was a very archaic male dominated environment, the canteen culture, the banter, you know, the words and the phrases and things that people use whenever challenged, they were not charged. And it was actually, the longer went on it was very derogatory towards women and totally affected us, you know, job, you know, because we weren't seen, we hadn't seen as equals. Yeah, not not all members. Yeah. And we're now seeing particularly since the summer of 2020. With all the problems in the States, we're seeing that policing, toxic masculine policing is not actually an effective answer to any kind of, you know, if you're a peace officer, if you're there to to improve, not being like a fascist locked down sort of force, to be there to police society in a way that's, that's active, you need a more diverse input and approach. So like, as you say, you in this other female officer working together, you're creating this whole other dynamic. So actually, and actually looking at, it should have been nurtured, it should have been celebrated. It should, for all the things that we did, there was no violence involved, there was no egos or match was, you know, we were significant. We were very strong woman, very confident in what we're in our abilities. And mediation negotiation goes a long way. It's not you don't need brute strength, especially as a police officer, specially when you're a police officer, I'm a firearms, I don't need the strength anyway, because of weapons, but at the same time, you don't need stamp, I don't think strength should be the top. And I don't think as you know, it's not the top skill of being a police officer. It's it's how you use your communication, how you less than how your awareness, emotional intelligence, emotional intelligence. And as I said, I was I was really good at what I did really good at what I did. And he just totally belittle that, and then try to use his power and authority and his rank, to suppress me to quiet me to silence me. And they've been trying to do that all year. So to do with the overtime claim to do with the flexible work and, and the been accused of the the firearms in the firearms, you know, that was just to put fear and threaten me and to scare me and to back in off and undermine your legitimacy. People. But the bigger picture is they saw me as a female, that was that it was all to do with my jet, they wouldn't have cheated on a man like that. It wouldn't have treated the same male colleague and in that situation like that, not at all. It's because they, they could turn around and say, I was neurotic I was a drama queen that I was taking a hassle for, you know, they used all these words and these phrases to describe my reaction to what they were doing to me and and all I was doing was being defensive. Standing up for for I believe that unfortunately, you would you had gone through the first series of police officer training, you would come with fine jewelry upstanding member of the police force. And then after this other training, which as you said, there's a very high failure rate. So you had met all their criteria psychologically as as a person, and now suddenly, yeah, they go have to paint you Is it like a dramaqueen? As you say, yeah. This nearly three year battle that that you entered into. Prior to that, that light bulb moment? Was that something that you kind of envisioned, or did you see that coming? We're and we're, you know, that I didn't because when I was introduced to that job role to that, to be in a Firearms Officer, it was very much will look after you will protect you. And we know you're the minority, we are trying to change, we're trying to get more women into the firearms Division I loved. I loved that being part of change. And I thought, yeah, this is good. They've got my back. They've absolutely got my back and they're gonna support me, you know, because I knew going into policing as a male dominated environment anyway. But firearms is a whole other whole other level. And so, you know, there was a bit of anxiety have been around, you know, people that have been in the army, you know, they'd been in this division a long time. You normally you didn't get into firearms unless somebody left and that was through retirement. You know, the division was very cliquey fairly once you'd ended on relief. So So you don't have people coming and going that I've got a diverse background, that I've seen a lot of change and development and progress over the years, you know, they're very insulated. This division was, so they put themselves out as being ready for change. The sound bytes in place. Yeah. But I was just a facade, it was just absolutely 70 words, there was no depth to the actual didn't know what to do. And they weren't doing it. And unfortunately, by time, I realized that I've got the email. I mean, real actually, I've been out in the division for a year got the email. And when I asked for help, it just never came a go worse, it just got worse, and worse and worse. So yeah, when I got that email, I basically challenged her straightaway. And I challenged them and approached them. And I said to the person that center, you know, this is outrageous, this is absolutely disgusting. And they wouldn't back down to the two senior officers, the one that sent and the one that was in support of this, it wouldn't back down. And eventually, because the conversate, because I was challenged no matter what the machine. And it wasn't backing down. They tried to threaten me by taking my firearms license off me. So it was. So basically, I was told by one of the other officers, as you're getting very emotional and angry, we're going to have to consider taking your firearms license off. Yeah. And I thought, no, not that you're actually threatening me. So it was like, are we going to have to take your guns off, you don't wanna? And I'm like, see, when he said that I just silence. I just backed off. I totally felt threatened there. And then, and I thought, fair enough to take this higher, unfortunately, and this is the reason that went to legal action was when I raised this as a formal grievance a formal complaint, they basically came after me. So they did take my phone. I'm like, Yes, overreacting. Yeah, absolutely. So I basically had my firearms license taken off me, I was taken out of the team. So I was isolated from the people that were my support network, who were very supportive of me at that time. And I was put to a different station, I had agreed to do some sort of mediation to help resolve the problem, because at the end of the day, I just wanted to do my job. And the reason I raised as a grievance, because one I was getting attacked, you know, by these false allegations of misconduct through my gun with a with a load, you know, thrown my belt with a loaded weapon, getting an email saying that can't work with other women. And I thought, they're gonna end up accusing me of something that I can't protect myself and evidence against. And this isn't a police. I mean, see, if we just stop for a minute and think about that for a moment. The police are there, they uphold the law, and the very people, the very poor I was doing for other people, I wasn't getting in the police. So I was getting attacked by my senior management by senior officers who were absolutely using a master ranking authority against me every opportunity to silence me. And I just wasn't remaining quiet. And they didn't know how to handle that. They didn't know how to deal with that. So that's how they make it out or you've been a woman, you've been your daughter, you've been, you know, again, the same words kept coming up. And but the MIT my male coma patch would not get treated the same. So I'm accused and senior off sort of misconduct at this point for discrimination, Boolean victimization, has guns never got taken off him. The question never even came up about Tikkun has authorization only. And yet mine got taken away because I went off for a couple of weeks because of his own. You know, because that affected my stomach, the stress, but it was something that I could manage. It wasn't mental at that point. It was just, I was I was tired of fighting. So just needed a couple of weeks of fight. I was tired of having to defend myself and try to find help and support that just wasn't common. Unfortunately, again, the other thing that they did was they promoted these people in the background. So for lack of very people that were very people that asked me, yeah, you're the one that accused me of throwing a bill that it was a misunderstanding, and the one that send the email discriminated an email off for promotions. So meanwhile, and uh, you know, so how, how is How is anybody gonna react to that? Yeah, you know, so see to the whole of Scotland because everybody knew about that email, that email when fired, wages employee score, sorted, and your team and I've checked out this alone, so I've had my guns taken off my As a department and my data message, that was a huge message, huge message. And I was trying to tell senior management analysts, and they just weren't listening. But it's because he didn't want to. They were trying to suppress it. We've since found out, and we've got the evidence after my court judgment, that basically they went out there ready to suppress and quiet and quiet. So it was a horrendous time. I mean, really, from the email until I took legal action. So January until the July, I ended up taking legal action because I was just getting northwest of Scotland. They weren't once a belly. Now, when early on in the three year struggle, they offered to pay you within an NDA. Yeah, legal document and stop you from speaking about what happened. And also, it wasn't just to stop you from speaking about what happened, it was just also stop you from assisting any colleagues with similar situations. That would have been an easy way out. It's an easy way out, it would have saved you all those years. And then the trauma and the effect it's had on your health and well being. Why did you decide to not take the NDA and go forward? So I still had, you don't know, at that point where it's going to go. You know, I had no idea that would have been dragged out for so many years, I had no idea of what was ahead of me. But at the time, I was a police officer. And I was so passionate about calling out for the dead. Because one, it was my reputation. I had a wonderful, I loved being in the police. I must not be a police officer, every day, every day, I have to deal with that grief because they took away something that was my life. That was my passion. And then, but for me, I spent majority of my time as a police officer seeking justice for other people. So why can I get justice? Why can't I get acknowledgement and get accountability for something that was clearly wrong. And when they offered me a payout, and there's non disclosure agreement, I was I was insulted. I was absolutely insulted. And I said, No, this is wrong. This is wrong in so many levels, because nobody's going to know what you've done to me. And right now you've got two officers that have been promoted. They look like they've done nothing wrong. And meanwhile, I have my reputation has been ruined. I'm not in the division anymore. And my mental health at that time, had broken down and had a mental breakdown in the June of 2018. So I was extremely vulnerable. And elven, they offered that to me. And my finances were really impacted as well. I had the whole worry of what am I going to do if I end up losing my job here, because I knew I think at the time that they offered me the first payment and NDA, we had been at legal action for at least five months, and I was tired. I was physically mentally exhausted, my mental health was still dramatically impacted. And even the thought of benign police officers made me out. I was elven police officers. I couldn't get any police stations, I couldn't look at police cars. Anything that reminded me of the police affected me so badly, it meant I didn't leave the house for a long, long time. So when they offered me that, and the other thing, so that was when this all started, when this all happened, I couldn't find another woman to ask for support. So it was because how many other taking that possibility out of the game. So I could not find him to help to support me who I could talk to. I mean, if you're an alcoholic, if you've got drug addiction, you have groups, you have support networks, you can go and speak to people. And I had nobody, I was on my own. I was isolated. By this time, the people, the very people who I thought were family, and basically just abandoned me. So I was literally on my own. And then when I got offered this, I have no idea of where it came from. I have no idea why here the strength came from but I just did not show a strong for you do that. And I'm not gonna say that. And the other thing was, there was an extra cause that they're trying to put and that would have prevented me being a witness but any other police officer who was taking Police Scotland to court, and I think that Lisa found out that it would have been illegal anyway, they couldn't have done it. But he tried. And it shows you the length the went to 10 all silence, it shows you that there was some understanding that perhaps this sort of case might arise again, if they had the forethought to think and oh and you can't be with standing as a witness for anyone else. As because you know that there are Other cases? So yeah, that and there are, there are many, I mean, I have been approached by many women since I went public and 20 things 2020, I went public, after I left the police, I couldn't do before because I was a police officer, which is another, you know, another obstruction and limitation. Because when I went public, the amount of women that came forward was phenomenal. These are women that left the police that didn't take any action, or were taking action. And, you know, they reached out and said, You're not alone. And that, that that was so powerful for me that I've been so alone for such a long time. It really, really helped. And, you know, you're like a lightning rod for them. Because no doubt they were alone and felt alone. And that voice they didn't have. We didn't take that NDA. Yeah. fought and sacrificed. Speaking of sacrifice, a question that I'd love to ask is, if I asked most of my guests and wouldn't around this topic of what did you lose? And what did you gain? Well, we've talked about some of the what you lost, but it also impacted your, your health. And there are ongoing effects to that, like, I understand how that can happen. How did it affect you. So every day, I have to manage my mental health, basically. So I have been to a lot of treatment over the years, and I've spoke to some wonderful people that have helped me, and, you know, an apple experienced mental health before that, never had never had. And it's like joining a police that I say to people, it's like, there's things that you will see and do, and you will never be able to unsee or undo them, you will always that will always be etched in your mind at some point. And it's like, that's her. That's her mental health as I can't unsee this, no, I can't unfill this. I can't and be this as part of me. And that's not okay. That is not okay. That I was led, that that resulted not happening because it was totally unnecessary. If the police, if the organization I loved and believed and held in high regard, had basically done what they said they do, which is they look after their police officers, their well being as priority, we will support you we will not if they had done that I would not be here today, because there would be I would have been in a safe environment. That was not a safe environment. But I didn't know what I didn't know. So it was hidden from me that that should add that facade of you know, so yeah, I lost my mental health. And there's something I have to deal with after DNA. And I'll never forgive them for that. And financially, it really financially to the world around us. So that's cool court case, I didn't get support from the Federation. I didn't get support from the police. What I got was ignored, obstructed, misled, limited information. And I ended up paying for my own legal support. So my own legal team, I spent an excess of 70,000 pound to get my case to court. Now, the social and justice element of my case is also something that needs highlighted. So you've got your non disclosure agreements and social injustice. If you absolve against the public Parsh the police were using the public portion against me. And no diverse regulator. Nope, there was overlooking or, you know, holding them to account for anyway, the whole NDA thing works. They let you know, we've got deeper pockets than you do. You've found resources. We've got all the finances necessary, we can wait you out. So I mean, that that David and Goliath, as absolutely as, but I have am genuinely, I cannot thank my family enough, but without them, I would never have got justice, because they have basically supported me. And they have paid for my legal bills as well. So they don't only at the age of 45 I've got my mom and dad still paying for me looking after me, but also Pima legal boats. And, you know, I was offered a second amount of money and another NDA just before the court case, because I was literally on my knees and I was so an electrical and they wanted you. They had me really wanted me. So they had for the three years to get to court. They're basically financially crippled me, affect my mental health and kept me in limbo. That other thing was in limbo for a long time. I couldn't work because I was so ill. And I can't couldn't go back to the police because it costs so much mental health issues. And at the end of the day, I just wanted it to end, I just wanted to finish an end, I was mentally exhausted and not just end doesn't finish the court case. But there was a point for my mental health so bad that I was ready to end my life. Now, I know I was so unwell at that time, but there's nothing that could have the only thing that would just it was such a dark time, as you don't want to talk about that, again, because it comes back memories that don't want to think about respect what they created. They created that situation. And there was no need for that. But, and nearly took that NDA and Neela to that second amount of money. And then my partner's family came along and said, We'll give you the 20,000 that you need to take this to court. So they didn't give me no, it's not a small amount of money. 20,000 pounds, I don't know for that work certain dollars, but it's a phenomenal amount of money when you don't have any. And I don't have any ready to sell my house. You know, I've got three children that older, but they're still taking on, I can't physically and financially help them. They will be mum and dad, he, they were looking after me. So my mum and dad looking after me, I had my children looking after him as not a situation that anybody should be. No, and you were a former upstanding, totally capable police officer. And reduced to that. And now you've gone on, and you've got two new paths that you've taken, you've got your new career, but you're also doing speaking around this very issue, which I think is such a valuable thing. Yeah, it's a story that the world needs to hear. Before we get into your business I I'm curious, where are you speaking? And what is the impact that that's having? So one of the things that I always said was when this was over, I want to help others who wants to be an advocate for women, for police officers in the same situation? Because Nope, there wasn't anybody there for me. And I think just having somebody to say it's okay. It's okay to stand up and say this is not right. And you want things to change makes a lot of difference. And the police, you are institutionalized. I see it like a domestic abuse situation, you know, you are so controlled, it's a disciplined environment, the police and you are controlled. And there are many officers of rank that misuse and abuse their power and authority in different ways, which is just like a can of worms, there's just so many different scenarios and situations. But it's an environment that's nurtured this sort of behavior, unfortunately, and rewarded and rewarded. Exactly. So nobody was actually coming in to see actually you can stand up. Because the fear, the fear is so great of standing up or doing something about it, you've got yourself in a set, some people get themselves in a situation where they're reliant on the money that comes in, I was one of them, you know, and that's what made it so difficult. I didn't have a plan B, I didn't have the insurances in place that could have protected me and paid for this employment. I thought that, but the Police Federation, but they abandoned me when I needed him most as well. And that's a whole other story. But the main factors, I wasn't prepared. And when you're done in an institution like that, as a family, as well, you know, you don't believe for one minute like me, I had utter faith and trust in this organization and the people I worked with, I never knew this was going to happen. So picking out and standing up and as loud as I can to as many people as I can to share my experience. You know if that gives them the the strength to do something for themselves, or for others, the employer, but I think changes come in, and it's not okay to stand on the sidelines and not to answer the boater. Now, a question that I often ask in this season, because it's about huge transitions that women have gone through is knowing what you know, now, what do you wish you had known at the outset of all of this? And that's what also I would think that a lot of other women in your position or similar situations should know. There's about three things I hope you don't forget them here because I'm not my family. really isn't that great? Sometimes have a plan B financially, make sure you have you don't rely on just one organization for the insurance. So make sure you have car insurance that covers employment basically, and make sure you've got savings make sure you've got a plan B that can you can look after yourself for Three months, at least, just in case something happens no matter what, as the people roundabout you are of huge importance. So there was a lot of negativity around me there was a lot of people giving me advice. But question, Who benefits from that advice? Is it you? Or is it them. And if they are not helping you, you need to get rid of them. You need to create space between you and them, whether it's space, or just separation entirely, that needs to happen. Seek out people that will support and love you keep them close, and they will look after you. Well, we have got that sort of thing. See through this, when I haven't listened to my gut things have went wrong. And when I have kept going late, then two years on, you're not to say name, and nearly saying that. And it took me down a bad path. And my gut had said No, don't say no, but it was just so desperation. So I got back on track again. But your gut is very important. So influence having a plan B, and trust yourself, go with your gut, everything in writing, everything. And writing that is really important, because that's what has a lot of evidence that I found was to subject I don't know if this if you have the same, but we have subject access requests and freedom of information will be applied to an organization for any information they hold. And by law, they've got to give you know, Police Scotland took about four to five times for them to send information. And they still got a lot that they haven't shared. But by law, this should be shared and all the information organizations in the UK certainly should be sharing that information. And yeah, so everything in writing, if you speak to somebody verbally, and Rain, if they're going to if you don't think they'll pretend right and just say, can you put it in writing question? We'll have a discussion afterwards. You know, it's it's vitally important going forward. coal, coal people out there not nice, fabulous information. But unfortunately, especially when you've been told by the institution, you are a member of that will take care of you. We've got your back. Yeah, you you don't think that you need to be protecting yourself against this group. These are things that I've learned as of as of when nobody was there to tell me these. But looking back, that's what you're doing. Now that is totally a departure. We can see over your shoulder there. A poster that that's your current career, what am now doing, and how did you get on that path? So it's quite a weird way to go onto it. But I feel houses No, I'm going to see each and so I've always had a huge interest in property always, always, always be the circumstances just whenever, right? So you know, why? Why not 70,000 pounds a day? I have, why not start my own business. You know, see, at this point, it was like, and needed something to take my mind off what had been happening. And I'd went and went to university, so for the year before, so from 2020 to 21. I went and done a quarter postgraduate diploma and Career Guidance coaching and development. The idea was that I would be a career guidance practitioner. But what I really did was it was like a year of career counseling. So during that period, I found out that I wanted to be a surgeon. So I graduated, I am a pastor, which I'm extremely proud off as well, because I've never been a university that was first time with him. And yeah, I started my business in May of 2021. This year, if at all, you're now an independent business owner, how does he experience that you had these this whole the whole end of your former incarnation as Rhona Malone police officer, and everything you went through? How does that inform how you show up now in your business and how you interact with people. So see the horrendous treatment that I experienced from all the people that are supposed to look after you. I never want him to experience ever. So my business is very much fell on doing the right thing about supporting people be near 100% less than understanding, problem solve and finding outcomes and all the things I did as a police officer for other people. I still do but in the property market. But the reason I'm so driven, and I mean I could never have went and worked within a video game. And the simple reason is I would never put myself in that situation again. Never because I was so ill. I mean I was in a dark displaces, and I never want to experience again. So I'm taking control of my life. But the other thing is, I also want other people to see that, that bad experience doesn't define you doesn't mean that you have to be measurable and a victim for the rest of your life. If anything, if you are the one, they want 100% And you know, I love myself too much to not succeed and achieve and something else, they are missing out on something good. That's her icea. And every woman should see that, because they're wonderful people, so creative, so independent, and we have relied on conditioning, as since we were young to believe we were saying best we're going to be quote, you know, maybe not everybody's a cancer, I'm not speaking for them. I'm just speaking from my own experiences, it's important to believe in yourself to find that confidence and love, and take that on and help others. And whatever you choose to do. And you're doing that to your new business as an estate agent, but I think you're also very powerfully doing that through public speaking, bogus situation. Yeah, so I've just started doing that. Well, I hope you continue doing it because your your story is very important, is very impactful, it's an extremely moving as, as an, again, if I didn't do something with this, it would have been wasted. And it would have just, you know, what would have been the point. But I'm trying to turn it into something good. You know, it was a horrible situation, it was a horrible experience, and there's horrible people out there. But you can turn that around. And you can learn from that, and you can help change, help and influence progress and change and organizations like that. Because at the end of the day that our police force, that, you know, it's it's my duty, stele, I'm not a police officer anymore, but still my duty, because that will never leave me to make sure that people are safe. If I didn't challenge police, Scotland, if I didn't take it to that, to that extreme of going to court, it would have just got away with that. And more and more damage been affected. And that's not okay. And nothing changes. If nothing changed. Nothing changes Rhona, what you did, the battle that you put in and the impact that it had on you, is something that we all owe you a debt of gratitude for? You know, I don't I don't see t at. That was just, it. Just it w s a natural thing for me to do. And I love people saying that to me, but I really need them to put that into the energy and sup ort and other women who are g ing through this just Thank you so much for being with me today and talking to me about this. This is such a moving story, but it's also such an important story. And I'm really, really grateful that you shared that with me today. Thank you. Thank you for asking. Thank you September. This amazing conversation is one woman's efforts to use podcast guest appearances to get her very important message out to the world. Whether it's to build her business, her audience or credibility, or even rebuild her life. These women know that Co creating amazing interview recordings on other people's podcasts that will be promoted and broadcast from all of the major podcast platforms for years to come is a smart way to be building their brand and getting their message out. Whether it's to grow your speaking career to get more widely known or do better position yourself as the authority you really are. Strategic podcast guesting is a savvy move. We can help you figure out your best strategy and get you rapidly and effectively launched leveraging this powerful medium contact us at September@ofcoursepro.com or ook a complimentary consulta ion call. The links are in the n tes of this podcast. Join the ranks of people making podcast uesting really work for them. Le's get you started.